German Flagship Battle: The HD800 and the T1

I will start with comparison notes of how the two headphones perform on different music styles and recording qualities. I don’t expect to cover everyone’s playlist, but I try to be quite varied in the selection to make sure that everyone can learn a thing or two about how these two flagships handle different music.

Muse – The Resistance
A good sample of what modern progressive rock sounds like, with a wide variety of songs styles, from the typical upbeat “Uprising”, to a less typical symphonic type in the “Exogenesis” in three parts. The Resistance, was mixed by famed audio engineer Mark ‘Spike’ Stent, who also works with U2, No Doubt, and Oasis. And while no doubt the recording was made to sound good on taxi cabs and mall loudspeaker systems, it’s still quite decent overall.

  • Uprising
    The T1 is perfect for this track. Great PRaT, perfect energy. Gritty vocal with punchy, tight, and focused bass beats. The HD800’s presentation somehow is more ambiguous, with the large soundstage dispersing the energy of the music. I find the HD800 to lack the edge and attack to make this track comes alive. The rounder and less tight bass of the HD800 also doesn’t work here. Big mismatch for the music. If you listen to these type of agressive Rock mostly, then the T1 should be the one you get.
  • United States of Eurasia
    This is a more moody song that’s quite the opposite in tone than Uprising. The HD800 matches the mood of this song very well, the piano and vocal at the intro sounds just right on the Sennheiser. Since the song is not too energetic, the HD800 has just enough pace for it. The T1, on the other hand, is too uptight and the treble is a little hot on this song. The T1’s presentation is overall still enjoyable though, and certainly not as a big mismatch as the HD800 was with the Uprising track. Slight edge for the HD800, but the T1 works well enough.
  • Exogenesis Part I
    Both headphones are perfect for the symphony. There is better clarity and more precise separation in the T1 which leads for a better “visual” of the music. The HD800, however, gives me a better feel of the music. Quite a tie.

John Mayer Live at Los Angeles
I’ve always preferred the live recording of John Mayer when compared to the studio ones. The standard of the recordings is very good for mainstream music standards. The feeling of openness and liveliness can be felt on the recording. Vocal and guitar have good presence and is quite distinctly separated from the background. The music is easy to like, without being too pop.

  • Neon
    Clear separation, very good clarity on the guitar plucks on both headphones. The HD800 has a more weighty guitar sound than the T1, and sounds better for the guitar. There is some sibilance on the vocal with the HD800, but even more sibilance on the T1. The presence of the vocal is also better on the HD800, and the HD800 also has a warmer and a fuller bodied vocal when compared to the T1’s. Also, the HD800’s presentation really puts me in the middle of the music, almost like being present in the live concert. HD800 wins here, but the T1 is still quite enjoyable.
  • Stop This Train
    More or less the same kind of music and presentation as “Neon”. I really don’t have anything new to say here. The T1 sounds a little bright, with some sibilance. The HD800 puts you in the music better, and though there is still sibilance in John Mayer’s vocal, it’s less than the T1. Another HD800 win.

Corinne Bailey Rae – The Sea
The Sea from Corinne Bailey Rae is a good album for representing a cooler kind of Pop. The songs are quite varied in mood and tone, from the fairly mellow and laid back “Are You Here” to the upbeat “Paris Nights / New York Mornings”. It’s also a good album for getting a feel of how the headphones handle a mellow female vocal like Mrs. Rae’s. Recording quality is fairly good by modern mainstream recording standards.

  • Are You Here
    Corrine’s low key voice is very well reproduced in the HD800. The mellowness and the smooth voice sounds spot on. Vocal presence is not too forward, but has enough presence on the HD800. The mood of the song is perfect on the Sennheiser.
    Vocal is less mellow on the T1, but the presence is just perfect here. Overall the presentation is more lively, and leaning more into “pop”, than the “jazzy” version of the Sennheiser. If the bass beats are warm on the HD800, the T1 is tighter and more focused. Again, more “pop” with a good snap, rather than a mellower jazzy bass of the HD800. The HD800 is definitely more appropriate for this track.
  • Paris Nights / New York Mornings
    This is a very energetic song reminiscent of the usual Britpop tunes. The T1 comes out a little on the bright side on this track, and the treble is a little hot on the high vocal notes. The vocal sounds very sweet and soulful on the HD800, while on the T1, it’s more akin to a typical pop recording vocal. The presentation is more upbeat and energetic on the T1 as well, although I think the Senn’s mellower and jazzy presentation gets the soul of the music better. Another HD800 track.


4.1/5 - (48 votes)
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142 Comments

  • Reply July 3, 2010

    Ypocaramel

    I'm going have to pour myself some tea. It's a very interesting approach, especially because these two headphones have been covered technically before. Most people need to pay more attention to their preferred genres the impact that has on their perceptions too.

    • Reply July 3, 2010

      Mike

      Let me know when you've finished reading through the 7 pages! 😀

  • Reply July 3, 2010

    Frank

    Very nice review! It was fun to read!

    You could add a well recorded piece of organ music to this comparison, too.

    I have owned both headphones together with an outstanding Meier Audio headphones amp. As I do listen very much to classical music, the T1 had to leave me after a while, because the HD800's sound was often more realistic and involving to me.

    The final decision whether to keep the HD800 or the T1 came through listening to some peaces of organ music. Here the HD800 beats the T1 in nearly every aspect. The HD800's sound is so good that I was able to separate the location of different organ pipes in some well recorded pieces. I never heard this before, except from live performances in different churches. Neither the T1 nor any other headphone I've listened to so far was able to do such a thing. Also the bass is far more realistic presented by the HD800.

    So my opinion is:

    For classical music the HD800 is the overall better choice. For organ pieces it's possibly the best choice of all headphones on the market today.

    The HD800 beats the T1 on:

    organ music,

    orchestral peaces for big orchestras (Symphonies),

    operas

    For chamber music both headphones are to recommend.

    Rock and other kinds of popular music, I use to listen to with some Grado headphones. They make more fun when it comes to those types of musical genres.

    Greetings,

    Frank

    • Reply July 3, 2010

      Mike

      Hi Frank,
      I can imagine how the HD800 will play a good organ recording. It would be much better at pipe organs than the T1. Unfortunately I gave the last good organ recording CD I have (besides, it was a DVD-A) to a friend.

      Also, I know that I can't possibly include every type of instruments on the comparison notes. I wanted to include some wind instruments and trumpets, and an opera, but it would make the article way too long.

      Thanks for the comments!

  • Reply July 3, 2010

    a_tumiwa

    hi,

    i love your website and review, very detail and complete.

    Thanks,

    Tumiwa

  • Reply July 4, 2010

    Gen

    Yes! I knew it! HD800 always the best headphone! Finally a real fair enough review out!

    • Reply July 5, 2010

      Mike

      Hi Gen,
      Thanks for the comments. It’s good to hear some comments from Japan. 🙂

  • Reply July 4, 2010

    Quokka

    Is the Burson HA-160 amp really the best amp to use with the T1 & HD800? Some reviews have found the treble to be overpowering and suggest this amp is better suited to darker sounding headphones. A more neutral sounding amp would tame the treble issues found with both these headphones.

    • Reply July 5, 2010

      Mike

      Some reviews have found the treble to be overpowering and suggest this amp is better suited to darker sounding headphones. A more neutral sounding amp would tame the treble issues found with both these headphones.

      Hi Quokka,
      As I’ve mentioned in the first page of the article, the objective of the comparison is to find out the true character of both headphones.
      The Burson is actually a very neutral sounding amplifier, and it serves that purpose very well.

      If I had paired the T1 with a darker sounding amp, it may sound better, but then the evaluation won’t be as honest. With a darker sounding amp, I may report that “the T1 has a very balanced sound signature with no hint of hot treble”, while the reality is, it does have a tendency for a hot treble.

      It’s like using a very warm tube amp for a review. Then every headphone that we review will sound nice and warm, while in reality, they are not, and the warmth is caused by the coloration of the amplifiers.

      I hope you understand. These pairings are in the best interest for the review.

      By all means, you’re free to pair the headphones to any amplifier you want and get the kind of sound you want.

      Cheers.

  • Reply July 5, 2010

    Quokka

    Hi Mike
    Thanks for your reply. I found your review very helpful as I am currently looking at buying either the T1 or the HD800.
    My current source & amp is the DacMagic with the Talisman T-3H amp so I suppose I will need to try both headphones with my own gear before I buy.

    • Reply July 5, 2010

      Mike

      Hi Quokka, a personal audition is always best for making these kind of a decisions. 🙂

      • Reply July 8, 2010

        Quokka

        Thanks Mike

        I've just bought the T1.

        Didn't get a chance to hear the HD800 but had a good long listening session with the T1. Sounds fantastic with my Talisman T-3H amp and DacMagic.

        Cheers

  • Reply July 9, 2010

    HC

    Greetings Mike,

    Thank you for the detailed comparison between two great headphones.
    It’s a very interesting article.

    Would like to know if there are any plans to make it a 3-way competition between these 2 cans and the new HE6 from Hifiman?

    Cheers!

    • Reply July 10, 2010

      Mike

      Hi HC,
      We would love to review the HE6 and perhaps against the LCD2 headphone as well. But for the next two-three weeks, we are taking a break from high end headphones, and focusing more on the more mainstream products with the double drivers IEM comparison, single driver IEM comparison, and the closed headphones comparison. Those are three big articles, and I'm focusing my time on them at the moment.

      Here is the thread for the closed headphones comparison: http://www.headfonia.com/bbpress/topic.php?id=44.
      🙂

      • Reply July 10, 2010

        HC

        Greetings,

        I see, thank you Mike.

        Looking forward to your impression with them. =)

        Cheers!

  • Reply July 12, 2010

    Rosmadi

    Nice write-up! Looking forward to your next review 🙂

  • Reply July 16, 2010

    Shahrose

    Hey Mike. Nice review. Didn't you have a CEC CD player and Beta22 that you originally used for your reviews? I was disappointed to find you using the Burson to test these cans.

    • Reply July 16, 2010

      Mike

      Hey Shahrose. I’ve had three different Beta22 builds till now, first a 3ch, then a 4ch, and now a 2ch. The fact that I’m using a Burson in this review should tell you of its performance. 😀

      • Reply January 31, 2011

        Anonymous

        Hi mike, I’m new on here and I just stumbled across this article very well written by the way. I’m probably going to buy the Burson HA 160D in the near future and plan to eventually mate it with the Senn 650 HD, Grado PS 1000 as well as the T1. My main genres of music is classic metal (Iron Maiden, Black Sabbath, Judas Priest) modern metal (In Flames, Insomnium, Arch Enemy, etc) as well as everyday mainstream rock (High Holy Days, I Mother Earth, Linkin Park, Our Lady Peace etc) and classic rock (Beatles, Pink Floyd, The Rolling Stones, Journey etc). Over the last few months I’ve started to also get into Jazz (Diana Krall, Melody Gardot, Quincy Jones, Miles Davis) and the odd R&B/Soul/Rapp song (Seal, Akon, Snoop Dogg, Ludacris).

        My question to you is considering the treble on the T1 can be hot should I maybe forget about the Burson and find another alternative for driving my future headgear. Once I get the Burson HA 160D I was planning on slowly buying my cans starting off with the Grado’s then eventually getting the Senn’s in a year or two. Eventually once I get all the cans I want I was thinking of maybe experimenting and giving a good tube amp a shot (Zana Deux, WA2). I probably wouldn’t be getting the T1’s for a good 3 or 4 years. Whats your advice on the matter should I make the plunge and go with the Burson?

  • Reply April 16, 2011

    Dadab12

    Great review mike, I’m about to buy the HD800 for mostly jazz, acoustic and classical.
    though I havn’t decided on an amp yet, any suggestions ?

    • Reply April 16, 2011

      Anonymous

      The HD800 is extremely revealing, hence merciless to bad recordings. Although you can get solid state amps with better technicalities, I find that Eddie Current’s Zana Deux to be one of the best pairing with the HD800 as it allows me to enjoy many older ADD and AAD recordings that I otherwise wont be able to listen with the HD800. Most of the Jazz great artist also had relatively mediocre recordings, including Coltrane, Miles Davis, etc, and the Zana is again good for these reasons.

      Technicalities wise, the Zana is weak on low bass, but the Impact is still good for Symphnonies. Although the soundstage width is not very wide, I find it to have one of the best soundstage imaging, depth, and ambiance. It is one of the amps that can make me forget about the technical stuff and just enjoy the music.

      Another amp that pairs with the HD800 very well is the Manley Neo 300-B preamp, but it is $6,000.

      • Reply April 16, 2011

        Dadab12

        Thanks mike, unfortunately I won’t be able to spend that much on an amp. I’m getting the HD800 for a cheap price hence the will to buy it.
        I was looking at the 600$ price range though are there any good amps that are worth to couple with the HD 800?

        • Reply April 16, 2011

          Anonymous

          Ummm the HD800 is very demanding of a good amp… i actually would recommend the hd600/650, sony z1000, or the orthodynamics if you can’t swing the budget for the high end amps.

          At the very minimum, get the woo6. I think it is the cheapest amp that I can live with the HD800.

          • Reply April 16, 2011

            Dadab12

            I decided to go with the SPL Auditor, I hope I made a good choice.

            • Reply April 17, 2011

              Anonymous

              Okay, good choice. Very neutral and colorless amp.

              • Reply April 19, 2011

                Dadab12

                Thank you, you have an experience with it ?

  • Reply April 16, 2011

    Dadab12

    Thanks you recommend the Woo audio 6 over the Burson 160?
    and how does the M3 compare to either of them?
    I hope I don’t get screwed with an amp though

  • Reply April 29, 2011

    Matt

    Hi Mike,
    What a great comparison!
    In your opinion, which of the HD800 or the T1 has richer vocals and more mids presence?
    I’m leaning toward the HD800 at the moment because of its impressive 3D soundstage & imaging.
    Thanks.

    • Reply April 29, 2011

      Anonymous

      The HD800’s vocal is mellower and warmer, but I think the T1 has a more spot on presence, though it is crisper in vocal quality. I like the T1 for rock vocals that need to be more lively, where the HD800 is better suited for the mellower, warmer vocal stuff.

      • Reply April 30, 2011

        Matt

        Okay, I got your points Mike.
        What’s your opinion of the T1 against the LCD-2 for mainstream pop & rock?
        Cheers.

        • Reply April 30, 2011

          Anonymous

          Mainstream Pop and Rock. Go with the LCD-2.

          • Reply May 1, 2011

            Matt

            Thanks.
            I also listen to many live recordings. Which of the T1 or LCD-2 has wider, deeper and 3D soundstage? Or maybe Hifiman orthos better-off in that regards?

            • Reply May 1, 2011

              Anonymous

              The LCD-2 has a wider and deeper 3-D soundstage than the T1. The Hifiman
              orthos are not that good with soundstage (the HE-500 is the best so far,
              but still not on par with the LCD-2, T1 or HD800).

              • Reply May 2, 2011

                Matt

                OK Mike.
                So the HE-500 is even smaller and less 3D than the T1? That would be a big no then.

                Do you think the LCD-2 has better pinpoint precision and separation than the T1?
                Which of these two is more forward-sounding?
                Thanks a lot Mike.

                • Reply May 2, 2011

                  Anonymous

                  Hi Matt,
                  I never said that the HE-500 is even smaller than the T1.

                  The T1 has a more precise pinpoint imaging and is also more forward sounding than the LCD-2.

                  • Reply May 2, 2011

                    Matt

                    Sorry Mike, my bad.
                    I assumed based on your comment that the HE-500 is still not on par with the T1 soundstage-wise.

                    • May 2, 2011

                      Anonymous

                      Bigger sound stage, but not as pin point as the T1.

                      What music do you listen to?

                    • May 2, 2011

                      Matt

                      Live pop recordings. Looking for a headphone that not sounds in-your-head.
                      I love lush vocals too, that’s why I asked you the HD800 vs T1 question days ago.

                      I’m a bit concerned that the LCD-2 overpowering bass might impact its midrange presence, not to mention its dark signature.
                      But from what you stated already, it seems that the LCD-2 probably have better soundstage than the new HE-500.
                      Big thanks Mike.

                    • May 2, 2011

                      Ivan

                      What if I listen to a mix of concerto and metal? Which can would better suit that mix, HD800, T1 or HE-6?

                    • May 2, 2011

                      Anonymous

                      What kind of a concerto?

                      I am not so sure about metal though… either the LCD-2 or the T1.

              • Reply May 3, 2011

                Tony

                Greetings Mike. Is it safe to say the LCD-2 has bigger 3D soundstage and better precision imaging than the HE-500? Cheers.

                • Reply May 3, 2011

                  Anonymous

                  Hi Tony,
                  Better precision imaging yes, but smaller than the HE-500.

  • Reply May 2, 2011

    Gary

    Hey Mike, I’ve heard that the HD800 is very revealing of bad recordings. However, what exactly is a “bad recording” ? Has it anything to do with bit rate?

  • Reply June 3, 2011

    Teo

    Hey Mike, do you think the T1 sounds recessed and distant in regards to its midrange? Thanks buddy.

    • Reply June 6, 2011

      Anonymous

      The upper mid is quite forward actually, the lower mid is not so forward
      but it’s definitely more forward than say a DT880. I think what people
      may miss in the T1’s mids is that it doesn’t have the thick and/or full
      midrange body that you hear *usually* on warmer sounding cans.

  • Reply November 6, 2011

    Jackson Taylor

    Mike/anyone else, the HD800 sounds like my cup of tea after reading this review, and the HD650 isn’t, and the 800 looks like it has a very different sound than the 650. I listen to both a little metal, jazz, blues, RnB/Soul, and hip hop. The ?HD800 bass sounds like it is for me, and the T1s without the such hot treble sound like they are for me.

    Do you think the treble on the T1s would be a lot better and mids/bass would be a lot better with a tube amp? It sounds like it after reading.

    • Reply November 7, 2011

      Anonymous

      Hi Jackson,
      I still think that the HD800 is not a headphone that you get and expect it to sound good with different recordings/genres. Most recordings are very bad in quality and the HD800 just doesn’t play well with those recordings. The T1 on the other hand plays better with those different recordings, even the sub-par ones, though technically the HD800 is still the better headphone.
      And moving from the DT990, perhaps the T1 would be the more natural upgrade for you.
      Recently I made a similar suggestion on the HD800 and the T1 comparison. You can read it here: http://www.headfonia.com/what-ive-learned-two-years-writing-for-headfonia/

    • Reply November 7, 2011

      Anonymous

      Hi Jackson,
      I still think that the HD800 is not a headphone that you get and expect it to sound good with different recordings/genres. Most recordings are very bad in quality and the HD800 just doesn’t play well with those recordings. The T1 on the other hand plays better with those different recordings, even the sub-par ones, though technically the HD800 is still the better headphone.
      And moving from the DT990, perhaps the T1 would be the more natural upgrade for you.
      Recently I made a similar suggestion on the HD800 and the T1 comparison. You can read it here: http://www.headfonia.com/what-ive-learned-two-years-writing-for-headfonia/

  • Reply November 6, 2011

    Jackson Taylor

    Mike/anyone else, the HD800 sounds like my cup of tea after reading this review, and the HD650 isn’t, and the 800 looks like it has a very different sound than the 650. I listen to both a little metal, jazz, blues, RnB/Soul, and hip hop. The ?HD800 bass sounds like it is for me, and the T1s without the such hot treble sound like they are for me.

    Do you think the treble on the T1s would be a lot better and mids/bass would be a lot better with a tube amp? It sounds like it after reading.

  • Reply December 22, 2011

    Naim Choudhury

    Hi Heafonia, firstly, massive commendations on a truly thorough and expertly written article and comparison. One of the best I’ve read.

    My question is whether or not there’s a chance you could test the new version of the T1 in similar fashion. Based on the pictures, you tested the older revision of the T1, which has a slightly different driver and headband. The newer one is a little less treble hot or bright, and has slightly punchier and greater bass quantity. I feel the balance is much better with the new revision (serial number beyond 4XXX or close), and it would be great to see the comparison re-done to test the differences.Many thanks
    -N-

    • Reply December 22, 2011

      Mike

      There is a new version of the T1? Are you sure about this?

      Anyway if you read on the comparison article, the differences between the HD800 and the T1 is really ultimately a difference of sound signature and presentation that results from the different drivers and the different housing design. The HD800 has its own way of presenting things, and likewise the T1. While the changes you mentioned seems to be just a slight change in frequency response.

      • Reply December 22, 2011

        Naim Choudhury

        I’m not sure I would call it new per say, but from what I have read at Head.fi, the newer version has a different headband and driver cover (a new film over the drivers). I have only used what others refer to as the updated version, but some Head.Fi’ers claim the newer one not only sounds different (less bright and more bass heavy) but also looks different on frequency graphs as well. 

        It’s something I unfortunately do not have the resources to test myself, but I’m certainly intrigued by it. If you ever get a chance to test the newer version I’d love to hear your thoughts on any potential differences.

        http://www.head-fi.org/t/542487/beyerdynamic-t1s-headband-exchange

        • Reply December 22, 2011

          Mike

          That’s really interesting and thanks for letting me know. I’ll try to find one to check out.

  • Reply December 27, 2011

    Dan

    What a helpful review.  I am for the first time seriously considering headphones and this was most helpful not only because of the two models being reviewed but also because it provides a good idea of what to listen for.

    I listen primarily to jass and classical.  I have a Simaudio Moon 3.3i CD player and a Simaudio Moon 340i amp – connected with balanced cables from the transport to the amp.  My speakers are Vienna Acoustics “Mozart” speakers.  

    I have two questions.  Which headphones would you recommend for my configuration and the styles of music I like?  (Of course I love the speakers but sometimes my wife would prefer to be listening to something else or watching the TV so I need headphones so I can listen “in private”.

    Second, you make a number of comments about good and bad recordings.  (I appreciated your points on what makes a recording good or bad.)  My question is, where do I find the “good” recordings?  When searching for music of the type that I like how can identify those recordings that will sound the best given my setup?

    Thanks!

    Dan

    • Reply December 27, 2011

      Mike

      Dan, 
      I still think that Classical is best with the HD800. For Jazz, the T1 is also pretty good, though again I still think the HD800 is best for that. The HD800 is weaker for Rock and Pop stuff, where the T1 is much better for those genres. In short the HD800 is more specialized, where the T1 has a wider genre bandwith. 

      Now where do you find good recordings. 
      For classical it’s simpler. The majority of classical recordings from the major labels are good. Some are better than others, but the majority is good. DDD stuff tend to be best, but the newer ADD recordings are also pretty good. AAD recordings usually are horrible for headphone listening as they contain so much noise. 

      For Jazz, it’s trickier. First you have the audiophile Jazz recordings. Generally excellent recording quality from the usual labels like Stockfish, 3 Blind Mice, Telarc, Chesky et cetera. Audiophile recordings usually have stuff like “superior recording”, “24-Bit mastering”, and all sort of recording technology terms text plastered on the front cover. The artists are usually not that well known in the mainstream Jazz circle, and the CDs sell for quite a premium over regular Jazz stuff.

      Then you have the regular Jazz recordings, famous artists like Coltrane and Miles Davis. Recording quality usually is not too good and it would be good to have a smooth tube amp to mellow out the noise and cracks in these recordings. 

  • Reply January 16, 2012

    Dan

    Hi Mike
    Were both the headphones tested using the stock cables or whiplash audio TWag V2 cables?

    • Reply January 16, 2012

      Mike

      Dan,
      They were tested with stock cables.

  • Reply March 22, 2012

    Laurencewayne

    Mike-The Ety4PT + digiZoid is a winner-just as your review indicated.  But…I just can’t give up on my HD800.  I did Tyll’s mod (which seemed to do more for the bottom than the top) and have an Emmeline 2 Raptor; ALO cables going out AND on the HD800…and it still seems harsh.  As you said, especially with poor recordings.  But, I too appreciate Horowitz et al and am pursuing the ideal match.  Question, what amp will give the  smooth response over all?  Up to &2500?  Or, as you previously thought, my Raptor should do and it’s just me?  Thanks for the great assistance-gosh the digiZoid is fun!  (Maybe that’s the answer with the HD800?)

    • Reply March 22, 2012

      Mike

      Laurence,
      Out of all the amps I’ve tried, the Zana Deux is the most tolerant of bad recordings. I was listening to old AAD recordings on the Zana + HD800 pairing, something that I can’t imagine doing with any of the other amps. I believe it’s priced at $2,300 and you should be able to get it for less than $2K on Head-Fi’s 2nd hand gear forums.

  • Reply April 21, 2012

    Windsor McGilvray

    Hi Mike – 

    I received an HD 800 (sn 02***) a few days ago and am really, really enjoying it for all applications so far.

    I’ve saw it written that the earlier production models of the HD 800 differ in sound to later models, which have a slightly warmer sound that is fuller in the bass section. Have you heard anything about that?

    Best wishes, 
    Windsor

    • Reply April 23, 2012

      Mike

      Windsor,
      I have tested two HD800s two years apart in production and heard no difference, except for the difference due to the pads.

  • Reply April 24, 2012

    MC

    Hi Mike

    I would really love to hear your opinion on my planned HD800 setup. Do you see a weak link in this chain from source to ear?

    – Apple Lossless file like Beatles remastered
    – Onkyo ND-S1 digital media transport
    – USB B-B cable (nothing fancy)
    – Lehmann Black Cube Linear amp
    – Sennheiser HD800
    – Ear 🙂

    Hope you’ll comment.

    Michael

    • Reply April 24, 2012

      Mike

      HI MC,
      First you can’t hook up the Onkyo to the Lehmann. Have to go through a PC for it to work. And while you’re at it may be cheaper to just use the stock Ipod USB dock cable > Laptop > Lehmann.
      Second my friend who owns the USB Linear amp says that the DAC is just okay.
      Thirdly with the Beatles remastered I’d rather have the Zana Deux amp. The Lehmann is good for modern classical/Jazz digital DDD recordings.

      • Reply April 24, 2012

        MC

        Hi Mike

        Thanks a lot for your comments. I really appreciate them. I guess the Onkyo is a missing link and not a weak link. That is a disappointment to me, because according to the product description the Onkyo can “Send the audio digital signal you’ve extracted to a better DAC (digital to analog converter) … with full-resolution file formats such as Apple Lossless and WAV… the dock can also be used as a standalone device alongside any AV receiver/amplifier or a suitable standalone DAC.” I thought that would include the Lehmanns build in Burr-Brown PCM2702E. Too bad 🙁
        Two elements in the equation are already present: the Lehmann amp and the HD800 🙂 And I am trying to figure out how to get the most out of their potential. I’ll try running the iPod signal through the laptop. But if the Lehmann DAC isn’t the best, a decent CD player might be the answer I’m looking for. Any suggestion on how to make the most of my equipment or how to best feed my amp is more than welcome.

        Michael

        • Reply April 24, 2012

          Mike

          I’d skip the CD player and get the best USB DAC you can find. Much better performance for the money.
          Either the HRT MS2+ or the Dacport LX for ~$300
          Or the Kingrex UD384 for ~$600.

  • Reply May 10, 2012

    Windsor McGilvray

    Hi Mike – I’ve been with the HD 800 for a few weeks now. I’ve been listening at moderate volumes and for some reason am finding that I have slight ringing in my my ears afterwards, so I’m thinking about getting an HD 600 again to make it easier on my ears. Do you think that the ringing could be due to the HD 800’s plentiful treble?

    • Reply May 10, 2012

      Mike

      Yes the HD800 is very picky of the recording and gear you use it with. The HD600/650 are easier to enjoy.

      • Reply May 14, 2012

        Windsor McGilvray

        Update: I bought a used white driver HD 600 today and I love it!

        I also realise that the treble issues I experienced with the HD 800 were due to listening too loud. Since reading into that, I’ve changed my listening volume to ~80 dB and problem I had with the HD 800’s treble seems to have noticeably diminished – I still hear the HD 800 as slightly treble-centric and wouldn’t be surprised if the issues many people have with the HD 800 arise from listening too loud (if you listen too loud with it or any other headphone, it will hurt!)

  • Reply May 11, 2012

    Mike

    Thanks for posting, Windsor.

  • Reply September 5, 2012

    AlonditeMX

    I’m having trouble figuring out why there’s repeated mention of the HD800 not being able to maintain the pace on faster tracks when it’s easily the fastest dynamic driver in the world; ludicrously “black between notes.”

    Seriously, they are estat-fast. All the measurements back it up too.

  • Reply September 8, 2012

    Nana Brenu

    Hello Mike, I have just finished going through all the pages. What a review !! You have convinced me to get an HD800. I hope i dont sound like a broken record asking this question: i know you are a big fan of the Bottlehead crack amps, but are there any tube amps you can suggest for under $1000? lets say your top 5 choices?

    • Reply September 10, 2012

      Mike

      Thanks, Nana.

      Under $1K right now I’d still get the Crack and the best quality DAC I can afford for the HD800.

    • Reply September 10, 2012

      Nick Tam

      If you really don’t want to DIY the Crack, also try the LF339 which L. reviewed recently. It gives the clinical HD800 a little more warmth and musicality perhaps?

      The problem with the Crack is that, it makes all the other sub 1k amps not worth their price and the only tube amps that are arguably better in the sub 1k price range is the LF339 and WA6 while carrying a higher price tag. And when I say “arguably”, I’m implying that their sound is also different. Really depends on what sound you’re looking for.

      • Reply September 11, 2012

        Mike

        That Crack messes up the price performance table really bad. 😉

        • Reply September 11, 2012

          Nick Tam

          Indeed. It’s just too bad some people are afraid of a soldering iron =P Yet, the sound of Crack made the process of building it SOOOOOO satisfying

          • Reply September 11, 2012

            L.

            Mike built mine, very satisfying too!

  • Reply September 22, 2012

    Benny Aims

    Hi, i’m a music producer of electronic music and wanted to know which would be better for techno, electro, house and hip hop etc.? Including amp

    • Reply September 24, 2012

      Mike

      Hi Benny,
      I’m not too experienced with producing electronic music. I asked my friend Moko who produce music as well and he told me he’d go with the Beyer. For the amplifier, if you want something accurate, try the SPL Phonitor/Auditor.

      http://www.headfonia.com/spls-phonitor-and-auditor/

  • Reply March 7, 2013

    ryan

    Hey Mike, I just got the HD800 last week but I just got time to listen to it now. There is some sort of creaking sound coming from the left driver. Is it a driver issue or due to insufficient burn-in? I can keep it for another week to listen if the creaking sound goes away. Otherwise I will be exchanging for a new pair

    • Reply March 7, 2013

      dalethorn

      Where did you buy it? What’s the serial number? Did it come with the freq. response curve certificate?

      • Reply March 8, 2013

        ryan

        I bought it from a local headphone store. SN17495. It didn’t come with any certificate.

        • Reply March 8, 2013

          dalethorn

          So then it’s used and the source of the problem could be anything. The problem I would have in seeking repairs outside of Sennheiser is driver matching. The HD800 is truly a precision instrument, and any fix to one driver or other part on one side only could unbalance it. BTW, here’s a picture of my certificate: http://dalethorn.com/Photos/Leica_X1/Headphone_Sennheiser_Hd800_Certificate.jpg

          • Reply March 8, 2013

            ryan

            Hey dale, how do you know it’s use? If it’s faulty, I will exchange it for another new pair, not getting it fix.
            The local store doesn’t have one in stock, they contacted the local Senn for one

            • Reply March 8, 2013

              dalethorn

              To me, not used means new, unopened, with the certificate that comes with it in the package with the books. The HD800s aren’t mass produced like most headphones, so they are individually tested very thoroughly before they leave the manufacture site. It seems extremely unlikely for a brand new HD800 to fail right out of the box. I’ve bought 100 headphones, most of which were mass manufactured, and none of them failed. It’s probably difficult to tell whether an HD800 is unused, since they aren’t sealed in the kind of tamper-proof plastic containers that most consumer products are enclosed in.

              • Reply March 8, 2013

                ryan

                It comes with the books except for the certificate. It seems that you need to email Senn for the certificate to be sent to you.

              • Reply March 8, 2013

                Mike

                When I bought mine, it didn’t come with a frequency response curve either. I had to send a letter or some sort to Sennheiser (I can’t remember if it was an email or an online registration or some sort) before the frequency response curve arrived a month later.

                • Reply March 9, 2013

                  dalethorn

                  That sounds right. I wonder if the cable connections might be loose, or some other part that could be put back by hand.

                  • Reply March 9, 2013

                    ryan

                    After unplugging and plugging the cables back, the creaking sound seems to go away. Got to monitor a few more weeks to see if everything is okay

                    • March 9, 2013

                      dalethorn

                      Try to wipe down the cable ends and maybe brush any debris or loose dirt out of the sockets using a clean cloth or brush. The reason I say that is I’ve owned the 565, 580, 2 600’s and 2 650’s and the 800, and all of the headphones from the 565 to 650 would develop loose connections in the cable sockets. So I would pull them out and wipe, then plug them back in and problem solved. I knew other owners of 600 and 650 who were ready to buy new cables, and I showed them what to do – they were amazed.

                    • March 14, 2013

                      ryan

                      The problem comes back again…

                    • March 14, 2013

                      dalethorn

                      Well, since Sennheiser charges a staggering amount of money for replacement parts, you would not want to take any chances with a flaky headphone.

                    • March 14, 2013

                      ryan

                      Yes, I am gonna exchanged it for another new pair. I having sleepless nights and I am not going to live with this.

                    • March 24, 2013

                      ryan

                      The cause of the problem is the cable connector from the headphone side, when the connector is push forward.

                      Future HD800 owner, please take note of this.

                    • March 25, 2013

                      Mike

                      Thank you, Ryan.

                      To be honest I’ve never heard of any HD800 having that problem. Yours is the first I’ve heard.

                    • March 25, 2013

                      ryan

                      It’s a manufacturing defect, I have already exchanged for a new pair 🙂

                    • March 25, 2013

                      Mike

                      Nice, what serial number?

                    • March 25, 2013

                      ryan

                      The new pair is 15xxx.

                    • March 25, 2013

                      Mike

                      Nice. Jaben guys told me the numbers above 10k have more bass and more relaxed treble.

    • Reply March 8, 2013

      Mike

      That shouldn’t be a burn in issue, I think something is not right.

      • Reply March 8, 2013

        ryan

        I feel the same way too. I gonna get it exchange next week

  • Reply January 20, 2014

    Andy Q

    Hi Mike,
    Which of the T1 and HD800 would you recommend to combine with a Neko D100 Mk2 and a Crack Speedball. I had previously owned the T1 but found the treble too much and that after the initial 10 minutes where I was amazed by the clarity of the sound that it wasn’t practical for a prolonged listening session. I have since sold my T1 but now that I have picked up a Neko on the cheap I was considering buying the T1 for another go since the Neko is known to tame the treble down a bit. However after reading your article I am wondering if perhaps a HD800 might be better suited to me. I like technicalities but I also like to enjoy the music. What are your thoughts on that particular setup? Thanks Mike.

    Andy.

    • Reply January 21, 2014

      Mike

      The T1 is like that. The neko can help but I don’t know what recordings you play. If your recordings are bright then the Neko may not do much.

    • Reply January 21, 2014

      dalethorn

      My impression of the T1 is the treble issue is a fairly narrow peak, and just reducing that peak some would get you a marvelous sound you might like a lot better than the HD800. Just a thought.

  • Reply March 14, 2014

    Andy Q

    Just a quick update. I finally got the neko going to a crack speedball to a T1 with Whiplash hybrid v3 cable. Love the sound. Can listen to it all day. Treble under control and a good serving of bass (previously lacking from the T1). I tried a TH900 with this setup and it was too bassy for me. My friend’s wolfson based audio-gd nfb2 -> crack speedball -> th900 was excellent however.

    • Reply March 14, 2014

      L.

      That’s nice to hear andy. thanks for sharing

  • Reply June 26, 2014

    Broooooobi

    bought the T1s and then saw this review….should have bought the HD800s instead. HD800 is the real king of the dynamic headphones.

    • Reply July 2, 2014

      dalethorn

      My T1 isn’t here yet, but my T90 is more satisfactory than my HD800. I do have to tone down the T90 treble a little and also boost the bass a little, but if it’s not overdone it retains the clarity and musicality well. I could never get to such a ‘liquid’ type of sound with the HD800 – maybe it’s just too revealing or something – don’t know.

    • Reply July 10, 2014

      dalethorn

      The T1 is really nice, especially at the $800-plus prices they’re selling for now. The sound isn’t as ‘big’ as the HD800, and it isn’t as accurate, but for the price I think it’s worth tweaking some. There are some interesting comments on my post at ComputerAudiophile that discuss the accuracy issue.

    • Reply November 13, 2014

      s. zorin

      Well, you do not say what music you listen to, so how can we understand your complaint ? If you listen to a full classical orchestra together with a full choir then HD800’s bigger soundstage effect surely helps better than the soundstage presentation of T1. I do not understand this review; the general consensus about T1 and HD800 is that HD800 sounds THINNER than T1, yet this review says the opposite. Another consensus is that T1 needs a tube or a hybrid amplifier, and none was used in this review.
      I’ve heard HD800 enough and I have T1. HD800 has its strengths but overall I find T1 to be better. They are more musical than HD800 and that’s what matters most.

      • Reply November 13, 2014

        Headfonia_L.

        I find the T1 to sound thinner really. They both can use a good tube amp or a warm ss.

        Are you sure you were using a good amp for that HD800?

  • Reply October 28, 2015

    Yaroslav

    Literally don’t know a better post to ask, so I’ll try here and hope for Lieven’s or Dale’s answer.

    What headphone is a better bang per buck if I can buy both HD800 and LCD-2 for under $1000? Got a Chord Mojo as DAC, can get an additional amp but pretty sure both will be driven fine out of it.

    I do understand it is totally a matter of taste. I also do understand the differences as noted in most reviews: HD800 as very analytical, super amp dependent, best soundstage ever, lightweight and comfy (all confirmed by myself after some listening). LCD-2, amazing bass and warm sound, characterized by many as HD650 upgrade, but still pricey and not very comfortable. Tried HD800 for about an hour, did not try LCD-2 yet (hard to get them for a listen where I live).

    Basically, if I can get a real flagship for under $1000 (HD800 still being a flagship), should I even consider an Audeze lower model?

    • Reply October 28, 2015

      dalethorn

      The HD800 is a great headphone on so many counts that the LCD2 would only compare (in the value-for-dollar sense) if the bass were worth 10 times as many points as everything else. The problem I have with the LCD2 is that on the one hand, the bass is hardly much better, and the treble extension isn’t good. At the risk of getting brickbats, I’d buy the HD800, turn the treble down slightly, and enjoy a far better headphone. But, if any such tone controls are a no-no *and* the better bass (if it is better) is critical, you could live with the LCD2. It isn’t bad. Another possibility is to get the HD800 and shop around for a good tube amp.

      • Reply October 28, 2015

        Yaroslav

        Thanks guys!

    • Reply October 28, 2015

      Headfonia_L.

      These are both great and so very different. To me the HD800 is technically the better headphone, but the LCD2 is the more fun one. These are very compatible headphones and in the end it depends on the type of sound you want, with your setup I think the Audeze might be the best bet as the HD800 is very amp dependent

      • Reply November 8, 2015

        Yaroslav

        Again, thanks to your replies. Just to share my update: finally demoed LCD-2f and HD800 back-to-back off Chord Mojo (plenty of power to drive both, nice) for about an hour and a half.

        Surprise 1: Fazored LCD-2 seems to have a soundstage the same width as HD600, which is plenty enough. Maybe it’s Chord, maybe it’s Maybelline(tm). Sound does not choke in these at all, as it does in my 400i.

        Surprise 2: I can’t find a bad thing about Audeze except maybe the weight and the fact that I’m scared that these phones can fall off my head. Yes, LCD-2 is probably quite colored, but for purely listening to music (and not mastering or recording) it seems in a league higher than HD800. Maybe it’s my lame experience speaking from only owning mid-fi Senns and one HiFiMan.

        Listened to classical for at least an hour and while there is a small “lack of airness”, to quote a lot of reviews on the subject, even orchestral and classical records were better on LCD for me because of the INSANE midrange. HD800 is supposed to be the best orchestral headphone ever, and I did not feel that—at least on my 320 bitrate stuff off Spotify and cheaper-than-a-multi-thousand-dollar DAC/AMP.

        HD800, being an amazingly technical headphone with a huge soundstage, somehow does sound dull and boring compared to Audeze. I did not notice anything wrong with highs on both phones, though: HD800 was not piercing at all on my Mojo (guess it is a good pairing, then!), and LCD-2 highs were not really recessed. After reading all the reviews, I expected LCD-2 to behave like a badly amped HD650, with a huge veil and everything, not the case. Classical music is amazing on it.

        Heres’s the kicker: my test pair of LCD-2s straight from the box had 2 build defects: a misplaced fazor (!) and a metal chassis failure (!!). Just wrote to Audeze to check if this is common. For a thousand dollar headphone, for God’s sake…

        So it is an even harder choice for me now 🙂

  • Reply December 24, 2015

    Denis Sanko

    Hi guys!
    I’m looking for a decent headphone all-round preformer, with a precise, neutral and detailed sound.
    Precision and neutrality for me do mean a lot and it’s not about dull and dry presentation but on the contrary a lifelike sound typical of good studio monitors such as JBL 4429 or 4319. Neutrality and precision, which allow for different musical intonations and moods to come through.
    When you can see into the recording both with ears and heart. Touch it and feel it.
    The contender must be on very good terms with dynamic peaks, attack, punch, speed and cope fairly well with any musical genre from hard rock to classical music.
    Judging by a great deal of reviews and comments I think that T1 is somewhere close to my needs. The budget is around 2000 usd. I’m interested if my expectations with T1 are close to what they are. Or perhaps there are other strong and competitve challengers up to that price point to meet my demands best?
    Advice on proper amplification is also much appreciated. I’m wondering about Beyer A2 and
    Trafomatic Head 2. The latter is supposed to be very dynamic and engaging with as little color as possible for tube amp.
    Or smth else I’m not aware of…?
    The source to feed them with music will be AMR cd-777. It is already present in my primary audio setup based on high-efficiency speakers and 300B single-ended amplification.
    To be futher additioned by a more neutral and compact contender.

    • Reply December 24, 2015

      Headfonia_L.

      Think HD800 or T1. Don’t go near the A20 for neutrality, it’s warm. A2 is nice but nothing that special. how about Jan Meier Audio?

      • Reply December 25, 2015

        Denis Sanko

        Frankly, I’m a bit sceptical on HD800. Judging by reviews they are not friendly with hard rock music which requires a solid foundation.
        As regards Jan Meier I have no experience with their products. The price on these amps seems quite moderate. Any specific model to pay attention to?
        And how they combine with T1?

    • Reply December 25, 2015

      dalethorn

      If I remember correctly, both the 800 and the T1 have newer, warmer versions. I would choose between those, not just because they’re newer, or the mfrs. have learned lessons from the first versions, but because most serious forums (incl. Innerfidelity and the famous 50-headphone review at headfi) have described their eventual disappointments with both first versions. I’ve owned both, and concur.

      • Reply December 25, 2015

        Denis Sanko

        you seem to have first hand experience as an owner of both models. so what were the core dissapointments with them? I doubt one can find an ideal product to meet all demands in full 100%. There’s always a place for even tiny compromises. And it’s up to personal taste and demands to accept them or not.

        • Reply December 25, 2015

          dalethorn

          For insight on the HD800, I’d defer to two places – Tyll’s review and numerous followup comments at Innerfidelity, and David Mahler’s 58 headphones review on head-fi. My experience is basically the same – great technicals, spectacular upper harmonics resolution, awesome soundstage, but in the end, after the fireworks, just not warm and enjoyable. The T1 is very different – strong upper treble peaks and a weird tonality – a musician commented on my review at ComputerAudiophile, saying that the T1 can’t resolve the differences between a Steinway and a Bosendorfer, or certain differences between a horn and a flute playing a single tone.

          • Reply December 25, 2015

            Denis Sanko

            I’ve read your review and must say it’s very comprehesive.
            As regards the comments on T1’s tonal flaws in rendering Steinway & Bosendorfer differences I’d say it much depends on a recording itself and the rest gear combination. What is more I’m not a musician and probably those are (assuming they really are) very small compromises I could live with.
            As far as HD800 are concerned I reckon it’s a technically superb but “soulless” device for specific needs. too much of an audiophile but less of music satisfaction.
            I think more & more that T1 would be the right choice for me.

            • Reply December 25, 2015

              dalethorn

              Once you get a headphone that feels “right”, you don’t have to feel a disappointment down the line when some small thing is aggravating you (i.e. imperfection) – there are lots of electronics patches for those cases.

  • Reply September 17, 2017

    PETER JASZ

    Wow. I thought the other reviewer on call here rambled.

    Although you graciously referenced associated equipment used for the review, the lack of any technical measurements such as frequency response linearity (headphone scale), noise/distortion and transducer resonance results, for example, results in the endless (and unnecessary) subjective remarks.

    What makes you think that your amplification and source were the not the reason for the observed sound quality characteristics you attribute to the headphones?

    You can do better. You must do better.

    peter jasz

    • Reply September 17, 2017

      dale thorn

      Actually, everything makes a difference – amps, cables, etc. And how do you understand sample-to-sample variances? Assuming the reviewer has multiple samples…

      The key to having a reliable result is a combination of experience and direct comparison to other gear that’s in the same room.

      If you want to be frightened, like watching a good horror movie, just spend your last dollar investing in an expensive headphone that Innerfidelity has tested 5 samples of – all with different freq. response results. That to me is scary.

      • Reply September 17, 2017

        dale thorn

        I wanted to add one more comment here, which I hope isn’t too controversial. That is, a flat frequency response isn’t necessarily where you get the most natural sound from a headphone. Logically, neutral and natural should be one and the same, but where neutral is usually the determination from measurements, natural is when the headphone sound most closely resembles what you’d hear live from acoustic instruments and voices. And natural isn’t dependent on your personal hearing or tastes, it’s merely the headphone sounding to your ears much the same that live music sounds to your ears. I also think that when a headphone sounds natural, that’s usually where the best soundstage is going to be for that headphone.

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